Feedback on the project
Between
Chat rooms
Thread from bbc.co.uk/devon
03 06 06
Message
2 - posted by henrycriss,
6 Hours Ago
I
think that access for disabled people to the wonderful sites there are on
Dartmoor which are already accessible to all us able-bodied ones would be a
vast improvement to the quality of life of those who want it. When one
considers the increasing and increasingly ageing population of this part of
Another point I would like to put forward - can the provision of public toilets
be improved/increased, please ??
Message
3 - posted by AlanOntario,
5 Hours Ago
Stair
lifts to the top Hay Tor. Public toilets all over the moor. This has to be
"tongue in cheek".
Friends,
I believe that in our rush to make everything and everyone the same takes away
from the joy of being an individual.
To those who have a problem with leaving their loved one or friend in the car
in the parking lot while they go off to enjoy themselves, could I suggest that
they re-visit the area to make the climb. Just the joy of traveling along the
roads and taking in all the wonderful views would give, I suggest, a lot of
joy.
The suggestion of any kind of construction on the moor fills me with
apprehention, as I feel that once the developers of any stripe get their
diggers up there it will be the end of it as a natural wonder and that would be
sad for us and future generation
Message
4 - posted by Effervescent-Fred,
5 Hours Ago
They
need a chairlift just for street level it's that full of old un's
Message
5 - posted by John of
Paddington, 1 Hour Ago
Chair
lift on Hay Tor, this is an Art Sudent Gag. How are the 'Non abiant' to get to
the foot of Hay Tor? I recall a meeting many years ago about disabled access to
the Moor, yes certain paths were, or could be made, more wheelchair accessable,
the Moor is wild Country and unless one turned it into a flat 'Runway' it would
never be wholly accessable to persons with a physical handicap. It would be far
better if time and money was spent making our towns more accessable, drop
kerbs, smooth wide pavements (without cyclists) and shops that disabled can
enter.
Message
6 - posted by Susie**,
34 Minutes Ago
So,
we have to make do with running up and down the dropped kerbs in town and
marveling at the flat, wide pavements do we.
Strangely enough, I dont want to spend my life doing this, I want to explore
the countryside, the moors and other fascinating places. Why should I be
deprived of all this because I have difficulty in walking. Life is hard enough
mate without being made to sit on the sidelines all the time and being told how
grateful we are supposed to be.
Message
7 - posted by Devon
Host Kevin, 6 Hours Ago
B
Bolt wrote:
What rubbish to fit a stair lift. Disabled people have to accept they cannot do
ALL the things able bodied can. I am visually impaired but don't expect a
running commentary of what it is like to climb haytor.
Message
8 - posted by Devon
Host Kevin, 5 Hours Ago
George
Whitfield wrote:
We bend over backwards to try and make sure that the mobility challenged have
as much access as possible to what physically able people can enjoy. But
defacing a great natural feature of
It is a publicity stunt that has worked for this singularly talentless
"artist" because Spotlight was daft enough to give it airtime.
Wake up and spare us the fantasies of loonies and headline seekers pleas
Message
9 - posted by Devon
Host Kevin, 5 Hours Ago
Rosemary
Kind wrote:
Why not build a hidden lift inside Haytor, it wouldn't detract from he visual
image and the less abled could have access to the top. The staircase is a
dreadful idea.
Message
10 - posted by Devon Host
Kevin, 5 Hours Ago
Jason
Radmore wrote:
We could build a road straight to the top of the tor, and maybe to all of the
tors on Dartmoor along with the stairlift just so people who are maybe a bit
unfit could get to the top of all the tors as well. Or maybe we could persuade
the Egyptians to build stairlift up the pyramids so that can be accessed! Or
perhaps a stairlift in Michaelangelos chapel so the people who cannot see too
well can get a bit closer to the painted ceiling. I think we have to all accept
that there are things which we cannot do because of our own physical or mental
capabilities lets not ruin beautiful places just to make them easier to access.
Message
11 - posted by John of
Paddington**, 3 Hours Ago
DH
Kevin, This is obiously the 'Silly Season' but disabled access is a serious
subject. The Disability Act is now fully active but to look at many shops you
would not think so. If you provide a Service, any service, you must be able to
give that service to everyone regarless of diability. Go round your local town
and see how many shops have steps and no call button, how many have still
doors, how many, and this includes Supermarkets, have ailes that are too narrow
for a chair or are blocked by displays.
This is a silly gag, but it could be turned into something useful.
Message
12 - posted by Beautiful_and_useful,
6 Days Ago
I
am amazed that everbody seems to think Haytor is a "wild" place as it
is. Its got a major road going past it, has a tourist
Message
13 - posted by skipster2k2,
6 Days Ago
Why
dont they employ a couple of guys with rockclimbing rigs to help disbled people
ascend the tor if they want to. Would cost less than a stair lift, would keep a
fe people in employment and will have minimal impact on the look of the tor.
Problem solved. Next.
Message
14, 6 Days Ago
This
posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in
some way.
Message
15 - posted by whatasillyidea,
6 Days Ago
yeah
i know just the people! or maybe they could put a helter skelter around the tor
and people can get down that way!!
Message
16 - posted by harveyshideout,
6 Days Ago
We
must be moderated
Message
17 - posted by whatasillyidea,
6 Days Ago
yeah
i know just the guys!
or they could put a helter skelter slide around the rocks to get down that way!
Message
18 - posted by AiredalePete,
2 Days Ago
I
am able-bodied and I feel it is important that people with disabilities should
have the right to enjoy all of the amenities that are available to me and to
everyone else.
If Devon Council grant Planning Permission to this project I feel sure they
will do so with the stipulation that the appearance of the stairlift should not
in any way detract from the overall beauty of the area. A dark green stairlift,
for example, would work just as well as one of any other colour and would blend
in far better.
There is just one reservation, though: in the centre of
I would therefore point out that a mechanical stairlift, abandoned after five
years with peeling green paint and a chain link fence round it with notice
saying, 'Danger - Do not Enter', would neither benefit the disabled, nor add to
the natural beauty of the area.
Message
19 - posted by Beautiful_and_useful,
22 Hours Ago
I've
just noticed that
www.dartmoor-npa.gov...
and search for application number 0510/06
You're either for it or against it !
This is Devon Website 25 07
06
Is
it all fools day ?
Mike, Paignton
This
is a wonderful idea but why stop at Haytor? All hills and mountains should have
disabled access. It would also be a boon for those for are overweight or unfit.
john,
This
is ridiculous. Whilst I'm sure many disabled people would love to admire the
view from the top of Haytor, I really can't imagine any of those people who've
ever been NEAR dartmoor would be glad to sacrifice it's natural beauty so they
can do so. It seems to me like the people putting this proposal forward have
got their heads stuck in the politically-correct point scoring machine and any
people who are backing it are thinking more about the principle it stands for
than what it would actually do to one of the most beautifully untouched areas
in the world.
Ben, Torquay
seriously
- this really has to be a joke! a stairlift on dartmoor?! yes its unfair that
disabled people have poor access but don't ruin it for those who can.
james, newton
abbot
This
is absolutely ridiculous. surely the last thing we want to do on dartmoor is to
build more things on it. this would ruin the scenery of haytor and quite
honestly seems a joke. is it the first of april?
rich, newton
abbot
surely
everyone can see that that the stairlift is not a serious suggestion but a
means of grabbing the attention of the media and the public in order to
highlight the need for sensible access (i.e. the granite path) to dartmoor's
landmarks for the disabled and the infirm.
adam, torquay
You
may be interested to know that this story made it on to the back page of the
Irish Examiner where it publishes wacky stories from around the world!! Is this
for real? I can understand some sort of access from the car park to Hay Tor but
Hay Tor itself is dangerous enough for able bodied people, why would disabled
people want to climb it? My husband is disabled and I know he would not wish to
be on top of Hay Tor.
Miriam
Luscombe, Fermoy, Co.
No-one
can deny people equal rights and access to places that they wish to visit but
there must be another way. A granite pathway is all well and good but how can a
stair lift be anything other than an eyesore. What next special paths or roads
on beaches near the sea line in case people have problems accessing the beach,
rails on Berry Head Quarry and stair lifts there. Come on man get real, its
interesting to note that this came from an artist and not a local one at that,
who is not disable nor acting as a representative for such a group. It's an
attempt to draw the Council and National Parks Commission into an impossible
permission by using an emotive argument that can easily be defeated by common
sense and fact but which may not because of the fear of how they will be
perceived if they say no. All that needs to be said is, its a protected area of
outstanding beauty and it would spoil it. Granite path maybe!
BEN, BRIXHAM
Evening
classes have been banned in
Mike, Paignton
Blog on snopes.com
Stoneage Dinosaur
A Boy Named Subaru
posted 03. July 2006
How
one man is applying for a stairlift on Dartmoor
quote:
Planning
permission is being sought for a stairlift on one of
I'm
all for disabled access for public buildings wherever possible, but this seems
to be going a bit too far. What next - a stairlift up
Andrew of Ware, England
Vauxhall Ford now
posted 03. July 2006
This
is the day I have been dreading. I read about the plans yesterday and thought
it was a joke. Maybe it is and maybe all he is trying to do is to 'raise
awareness'. If he is then he is being stupid because he will be giving
campaingers for equal rights a bad name.
I am dreading the day when, for example, the turrets of ancient castles will be
closed. 'If disable people cannot have access to the tops of these turrets then
no-one should.' These people may end up having places, even countryside closed,
because if it 'can't be equal access to all' then it should be 'access for
none'.
--------------------
Andrew,
Posts:
1149 | From:
Stoneage Dinosaur
A Boy Named Subaru
posted 03. July 2006
Well,
he says the application is "deadly serious" and he has the backing of
disabled groups, so it doesn't look like he is just doing it to make a point.
Posts:
521 | From:
Mosherette
I'm in Love with My Car
posted 03. July 2006
quote:
Originally
posted by Stoneage Dinosaur:
What next - a stairlift up
Well,
there *is* a train up
--------------------
No one need post emetophobe warnings for me anymore. Thank you.
Free the West Memphis Three
Posts:
7576 | From:
Archie2K
Tennessee Ernie Ford
posted 03. July 2006
quote:
"We
hear a lot about the importance of equal access to the countryside," he
said.
This
kinda got my goat. There's no such thing as equal access to the countryside. I
enjoy hiking and go on some hikes which are long and have steep gradients or
uneven paths. My Mother would be unable to complete such a walk hence there
isn't equal access. The countryside isn't designed and as such can't be
designed to have equal access. Equal access to visitors centres and the like
certainly... but come on...
This thread does give me a chance to link to someone I met on holiday last
year, Australian hiker Warren
MacDonald whose legs were crushed by a boulder in 1998. Undeterred, he was
able to climb Kilamanjiro on short prosthetics with a Tanzanian boy who was
born with no arms. The story is rather impressive. Such a nice guy too.
Posts:
1423 | From:
Jayguar Temple
Moonlight Sonata
posted 03. July 2006
quote:
Originally
posted by Andrew of Ware,
I am dreading the day when, for example, the turrets of ancient castles will be
closed. 'If disable people cannot have access to the tops of these turrets then
no-one should.' These people may end up having places, even countryside closed,
because if it 'can't be equal access to all' then it should be 'access for
none'.
The
next logical step just occurred to me: No art museums and no symphony
orchestras because there's no access for the blind and the deaf, respectively.
--------------------
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
Posts:
2527 | From:
Neffti Neffti Bang Bang
Peugeot Me Whatcha Got
posted 03. July 2006
I'm
quite familiar with Haytor, and when I heard about this my jaw dropped too.
I think the reason this jolts is because igneous rocks can't be held accountable
for their inconvenience. If there was a building with
Googling,
Posts:
551 | From: Westcountry
Embra
posted 04. July 2006
Yes,
I think there is a jolt to this because the incongruity of a piece of
mechanical equipment on a relatively small natural feature.
I think it's certainly a publicity stunt, but as the man says, it's designed to
raise awareness of the difficulties a lot of people face in getting access even
to "easy" parts of the countryside.
The tor does already have steps carved into it. Mountains have cable cars,
chairlifts, rack railways, fixed ropes, steps, you name it. We have roads,
car-parks, and artificial paths. This doesn't set a precedent for altering the
natural landscape so that more human beings can pootle about over its surface:
we've been doing that for years. A stairlift may be out of place because of its
scale, but I can't see how it's "PC gone mad" just because the guy is
talking about old and disabled folk rather than able-bodied walkers.
No-one has a "right" to a nice view or a day out. As others have
said, no-one designed the tor with the express purpose of keeping people who
couldn't walk from seeing a nice view. But could amenities in the countryside
be planned better? What small amendments could be made that might offer better access
for everyone? How hard do you have to work in order to "deserve" your
view from the top of a hill?
--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this
stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.
Posts:
4078 | From:
Tarquin Farquart
A Boy Named Subaru
posted 04. July 2006
quote:
Originally
posted by Andrew of Ware,
This is the day I have been dreading. I read about the plans yesterday and
thought it was a joke. Maybe it is and maybe all he is trying to do is to
'raise awareness'. If he is then he is being stupid because he will be giving
campaingers for equal rights a bad name.
I am dreading the day when, for example, the turrets of ancient castles will be
closed. 'If disable people cannot have access to the tops of these turrets then
no-one should.' These people may end up having places, even countryside closed,
because if it 'can't be equal access to all' then it should be 'access for
none'.
I
believe that the letter of the law is 'equal access where possible'. For
example, there are buildings that, are inaccesable to anyone in a wheelchair. I
believe such places would have to attemptto become accessable where reasonably
possible, but I don't think they can be shut down for not being.
--------------------
I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant
quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord
Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!
Posts:
550 | From:
Embra
posted 04. July 2006
The
key phrase in Disability discrimination paw is "reasonable adjustments". Service providers
(which would include the owners of historic buildings open to the public) must
make reasonable adjustments to physical features to allow access to disabled
people. Reasonableness is one of those slippery legal concepts that's open to challenge
at any time but at the same time should result in a minimum of really oddball
results.
On the current definition I don't know if "physical features"
includes natural formations, or if it's intended to apply only to man-made
items. The examples of "physical features" given on the Disability
Rights Commission website includes things like styles, fences and paths, but
not hills or trees.
--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this
stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.
Posts:
4078 | From:
Neffti Neffti Bang Bang
Peugeot Me Whatcha Got
posted 04. July 2006
Embra,
that's interesting about physical features.
I feel that people can no more claim "rights" to a view from the top
of Haytor than I can to a view from the top of Everest, or the top of a pine
tree, or the bottom of a ravine. However I might have to think more about this,
as what I've just said would slightly contradict rights of access to public or
common land. Hmmm,
Posts:
551 | From: Westcountry
Archie2K
Tennessee Ernie Ford
posted 04. July 2006
If
a footpath has been built then it should be accessible within reason to
everyone. If a footpath has been designated but left unaltered then it should
be accessible to those with the necessary fitness, skill and training.
Posts:
1423 | From:
Jay Tea
Mitsubishi Loves You
posted 04. July 2006
Off-road
wheelchair - problem solved
I've been to Haytor, if that's where the girl is buried, the one with the
mystery flowers...
--------------------
This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever...
Posts:
5908 | From:
Andrew of Ware, England
Vauxhall Ford now
posted 05. July 2006
Thanks
for that Jay Tea. Now as well as country lanes being clogged up by 4x4s and
people carriers I will have my toes run over by caterpillar track wheelchairs
on country paths.
Going back to what Tarquin said about equal access where possible. then I
suppose that some people/groups may claim that it is possible to put stair
lifts up mountains so they should be put in.
Of course, there is also the problem of the electrical supply. A wind farm
could be put up there as well. Now that would be an improvement!
--------------------
Andrew,
Posts:
1149 | From:
Neffti Neffti Bang Bang
Peugeot Me Whatcha Got
posted 05. July 2006
quote:
Originally
posted by Andrew of Ware,
Of course, there is also the problem of the electrical supply. A wind farm
could be put up there as well. Now that would be an improvement!
That's
true, Andrew, I hadn't thought of that. Next time I'm on
Plus, the huge equipment that would be needed up there for some considerable
time to lay a large granite path up the approach, let alone the stairlift. Then
the staff working on it would need their portaloos and food supplies. Add it
all together and you're looking at Haytor being inaccesible to most people who
use the gentle approach from the car park for quite some time.
It's got to be a publicity stunt.
Posts:
551 | From: Westcountry
Is
Solar-Powered Stair Lift 'Just Bonkers?'
That's how the president of the Dartmoor Preservation Association characterizes
a plan conceived by artist
A
controversial plan to install a 30ft solar powered stair lift to enable
disabled people to reach the top of one of
Artist
Planning
permission for the scheme has been submitted to the Dartmoor National Park
Authority by Mr Murdin, who is collaborating on the project with architect
As
I'm also involved in disability issues at work, the response by Ms. Ashbrook is
doubly offensive. I certainly understand wanting to preserve natural beauty,
but if tourists are already climbing to the top of the Tor, access for people
with disabilities seems only fair. The fact that Murdin envisions the lift as
solar-powered creates a win-win situation in my mind. I'm guessing the
Preservation Board isn't so concerned with preservation that they'd keep all
tourists off the rocks...
From Yahoo!
UK via Eco-Friend
Categories: disability, accessibility, solar, innovation, nationalpark, UK
posted
by Jeff McIntire-Strasburg @ 8:47 PM
http://sustainablog.blogspot.com/2006/07/is-solar-powered-stair-lift-just.html
Topic - Haytor stairlift
by - The
bandit on -
by - Chris
Fryer on -
In reply to The bandit: I'm pushing for a chairlift
all the way from the carpark. That hill is a bitch.
by - Little
Brew on -
In reply to The bandit: oh FFS! this is taking
equal oppertunities too the limit! ok so i am in favour of open access for all!
but it wll deface the view of the landscape and damage the hill!
i am sure to be pulled apart for these comments, but it is like saying all
shelves in shops should be put at a height that all wheelchair users can
reach!!! and for that fact, whu not put stairlifts everyehere there is not a
lift or ramp! what about the gians causeway?!?!
sorry.
by - Jason
Kirk on -
In reply to The bandit: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=189911
by - Tyler
on -
In reply to Little Brew:
> but it is like saying all shelves in shops should be put at a height that
all wheelchair users can reach!!!
And what is so preposterous about that suggestion. All new build houses have to
be designed with disabled access in mind.
by - majormajormajormajor
on -
In reply to The bandit:
Can we get a slide down the other side?
by - dave657
on -
In reply to The bandit:
would make setting up a top rope a bit easier
by - John
Lisle on -
In reply to Little Brew:
>
> i am sure to be pulled apart for these comments, but it is like saying all
shelves in shops should be put at a height that all wheelchair users can
reach!!!
The building regulations people have told us that all our new light switches in
the extension need to be at wiast hieght for this very reason. The rest of the
house is Edwardian and we'd hoped to keep it all matching....
: (
John
by - SI
A on -
In reply to John Lisle:
you could argue that.
by - Little
Brew on -
In reply to John Lisle: ok so light swithces i can
understand, and also door handles.... but putting a big electrical eyesaw on a
lovely hill?!?!?!?!
by - Ste
Brom on -
In reply to The bandit: Is this coming from an area
that cant secure access to vixen tor?
by - mostly
harmless on -
In reply to The bandit: Have to admit when I heard
this on radio4 this morning my first thoughts were "april fool".
Dave
by - John
Lisle on -
In reply to John Lisle:
aAAARGH
...HEIGHT... I meant; sorry
by - Barrington
on -
In reply to John Lisle:
Count yourself lucky. I've just had the same problem with an existing room! The
power-points on opposite walls are now at different heights - and as soon as
the certificate is signed they'll be changed. How pointless!!
by - Mark
Kemball on -
In reply to The bandit: My climbing partner Nic has
a brother with quite bad cerebal palsy he has been over most of
by - rich
on -
In reply to Little Brew:
> (In reply to The bandit) oh FFS! this is taking equal oppertunities too
the limit! ok so i am in favour of open access for all! but it wll deface the
view of the landscape and damage the hill!
"designed to raise questions about who really has access to Britain's wild
landscapes."
you're clearly not in favour of open access for 'all' you don't believe for
example that wheelchair users, people who can only walk with a frame and so on
should be given access to the top of that rock equal to those people who can climb
up it unaided
i'm not criticising that view by the way but it is your view (i'd say)
by - Little
Brew on -
In reply to rich: you could argue that all rock
faces should have this installed, for example the pinnacle t symonds yat has
some lovely views from the top but only if you lead sever and are happy with
the exposure?!? should we put a lift in?
i agree that people with a disability should be provided with the means to
access all areas of the country, but does this in turn mean we sacrifice the
view in favor of an ugly stair lift?!? or install a wooden walkway ramp? and in
turn i cant get to the top of Everest due to the cot, but i want to see the
view from the top of that, will someone do something about that for me? no,
because it is not a practical thing to do! so in turn installing a powered stair
lift to a rock face is not a practical solution!
by - Ste
Brom on -
In reply to rich:
For the benefit of the minority at the detriment to the majority and the
environment.
Tough decision, slightly callous, but stick the ramp up yer bum.
Access for all where practical and does not defeat the object of the excercise.
by - Stefan
Lloyd on -
In reply to The bandit:
http://www.wayswithwords.co.uk/pdf/VOICE.prog.06.pdf
"
of place, power and politics in
new work based on
interventions in a nationalised
landscape,
Park
campaigning, and engagement
with the planning system, his
installations propose that
possession is only 1/10th of the
law.
He explores the politicisation
of access and the rules and
values governing public
admission to ‘wild’ places.
Farming versus leisure;
romanticism versus access; who
wins in the new battle for the
landscape?"
I doubt this is actually a serious proposal. It seems more like performance
art. Does he own the land? Does he have the money?
by - rich
on -
In reply to Little Brew: i'm not arguing with you
particularly - the planning application is designed to make you think so i'm
thinking and what i'm thinking is that 'we' do draw a line with the equal
access thing and will probably always 'have' to do so - where the line is drawn
and on what basis is an interesting question though no?
in a sense all us climber types are even more 'exclusive' seeking to restrict
the access of able-bodied non-climbers from chunks of 'open-access' ground that
just happen to be a bit steeper than some other bits - a via ferrata up the
idwal slabs would be a marvelous thing for lots of people but there isn't one
so most people never get to stand on that ledge . . .
by - sutty
on -
In reply to
>The power-points on opposite walls are now at different heights - and as
soon as the certificate is signed they'll be changed. How pointless!!
Pointless having them at a reachable height or you trying to void the
regulations?
You will have to put them back to the regs height if you move so learn to live
with them, you may be glad you did should you suddenly have an illness that
stops you getting down to low sockets.
Are you also going to lower your light switches to the same level in the
pursuit of aesthetics?
by - majormajormajormajor
on -
In reply to The bandit:
Particularly daft when you see the streams of tourists who bothered walking in
in the first place coming back with a "What was all that about?" look
on their face. There are plenty of other views on the moor with access for all
to enjoy.
Perhaps they should be doing something about the erosion to the path and
encouraging people to visit other parts of the moor, like Vixen tour ;-)
Or maybe a conveyor belt for all?
by - Little
Brew on -
In reply to rich:
> (In reply to Little Brew) i'm not arguing with you particularly -
sorry it seem you were! you are forgiven...am i?
i do agree with you though, where do you draw the line on access to all? and
what do you define as access, being able to view the hill, or standing on top
of it?!? oh and i have seen the ledge on Idwal, but had only my mom and dad
with me the day i was there, so no climbing for me, as it is 30 years+ sisnc my
dad climbed any where, and probably longer since he climbed at Idwal.
by - toad
on -
In reply to Stefan Lloyd: Sounds like he's wasting
public money that could be spent on genuine access improvements in the name of
his art / self publicity. One less textured interpretive panel / access stile /
lowered kerb somewhere else, one more glass of chilled chablis at his next
performance/ installation.
by - rich
on -
In reply to Little Brew:
> (In reply to rich)
> [...]
>
> sorry it seem you were! you are forgiven...am i?
not arguing for arguing sake just 'driving out discourse' as they say
i'll do better than forgiving - i'll absolve you completely
by - Mark
Kemball on -
In reply to rich: The point of my earlier post is
that places like the top of Haytor are accesable to many disabled people if
they realy want to get there and are prepared to make an effort. What is the
point in making beautiful wild scenary "accessable to all" if in
doing so you destroy the very wildness and beauty that they are coming to see?
by - Little
Brew on -
In reply to rich:
Thank you =)
by - rich
on -
In reply to Mark Kemball:
> (In reply to rich) The point of my earlier post is that places like the
top of Haytor are accesable to many disabled people if they realy want to get
there and are prepared to make an effort.
i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would
someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?
by - rich
on -
In reply to Little Brew: 's'nothing . . .
by - Stefan
Lloyd on -
In reply to rich:
> i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would
someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?
It's a walk on slabby granite. In some places, steps have been hewn into the
rock. It is steep and exposed enough that I was a bit worried about my dogs
running around on it.
by - DerwentDiluted
on -
In reply to majormajormajormajor:
> (In reply to The bandit)
>
> Can we get a slide down the other side?
Isn't that Vandal and Anne?
by - JR
on -
In reply to The bandit:
apart from anything, i thought we'd erradicated polio in this country and most
of the world!? Unless his father has had it for a long time?
by
- Stefan
Lloyd on -
In reply to JR: There are plenty of people around
in the
by - toad
on -
In reply to JR: didn't Ian Dury have childhood
polio? It's one of those diseases that typically you got in childhood and left
you with a disability. Quite often you would partially "recover" but have
problems recur in later life (quite a complex phenomenon, IIRC) I think his dad
is probably old enough to have got it in childhood.
by - Mark
Kemball on -
In reply to rich:
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
> [...]
>
> i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would
someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?
Well, a reasonably rugged wheelchair would get you to the base of the Tor. To
get to the top, you would need an adventurous spirit and a couple of sure
footed fairly strong mates. Sure this is going to be hard work, but one would
then have a feeling of achievment.
by - johncoxmysteriously
on -
In reply to rich:
>i've never been there myself so to avoid any confusion what 'effort' would
someone without any legs have to exert to get to the top?
Dunno but a fiver says it would be less effort than Doug Scott had to exert to
get down off the Ogre.
jcm
by - rich
on -
In reply to Mark Kemball: i can't remember what i
was saying yesetrday now and i'm too weary to try to recall it - i'd spend no
effort trying to argue that there shold be 'equal' access to everwhere but i
still think that exploring the edges of where equal/open etc. access should
stop and how we define it and what the way we define it says about the way we
thinking about the wider issues is quite interesting
johncox: almost certainly - that was grim reading
This is Devon Website 25 07
06
Is
it all fools day ?
Mike, Paignton
This
is a wonderful idea but why stop at Haytor? All hills and mountains should have
disabled access. It would also be a boon for those for are overweight or unfit.
john,
This
is ridiculous. Whilst I'm sure many disabled people would love to admire the
view from the top of Haytor, I really can't imagine any of those people who've
ever been NEAR dartmoor would be glad to sacrifice it's natural beauty so they
can do so. It seems to me like the people putting this proposal forward have
got their heads stuck in the politically-correct point scoring machine and any
people who are backing it are thinking more about the principle it stands for
than what it would actually do to one of the most beautifully untouched areas
in the world.
Ben, Torquay
seriously
- this really has to be a joke! a stairlift on dartmoor?! yes its unfair that
disabled people have poor access but don't ruin it for those who can.
james, newton
abbot
This
is absolutely ridiculous. surely the last thing we want to do on dartmoor is to
build more things on it. this would ruin the scenery of haytor and quite
honestly seems a joke. is it the first of april?
rich, newton
abbot
surely
everyone can see that that the stairlift is not a serious suggestion but a
means of grabbing the attention of the media and the public in order to
highlight the need for sensible access (i.e. the granite path) to dartmoor's
landmarks for the disabled and the infirm.
adam, torquay
You
may be interested to know that this story made it on to the back page of the
Irish Examiner where it publishes wacky stories from around the world!! Is this
for real? I can understand some sort of access from the car park to Hay Tor but
Hay Tor itself is dangerous enough for able bodied people, why would disabled
people want to climb it? My husband is disabled and I know he would not wish to
be on top of Hay Tor.
Miriam
Luscombe, Fermoy, Co.
No-one
can deny people equal rights and access to places that they wish to visit but
there must be another way. A granite pathway is all well and good but how can a
stair lift be anything other than an eyesore. What next special paths or roads
on beaches near the sea line in case people have problems accessing the beach,
rails on Berry Head Quarry and stair lifts there. Come on man get real, its
interesting to note that this came from an artist and not a local one at that,
who is not disable nor acting as a representative for such a group. It's an
attempt to draw the Council and National Parks Commission into an impossible
permission by using an emotive argument that can easily be defeated by common
sense and fact but which may not because of the fear of how they will be
perceived if they say no. All that needs to be said is, its a protected area of
outstanding beauty and it would spoil it. Granite path maybe!
BEN, BRIXHAM
Evening
classes have been banned in
Mike, Paignton
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/
Posted:
I've
just been
http://www.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/index/planning/pl-devcontrol/pl-searchapplicationregister/application_register.htm
The application reference is 0510/06
Is this what we should be doing to some of the most beautiful places in the
south west. Or is it political correctness gone wrong.
Discuss
Posted:
I
know we have a train to the top of
[img]http://www2.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/WAM/display.do?extension=.pdf&id=180613&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application%2Fpdf&pageCount=1[/img]
Posted:
Ridiculous!
Why would people want to do this?
I once remember watching a holiday swap programme, where two families swapped
their very different annual holidays with each other - an activity week in the
Lakes and a drinking session / beach holiday on the Costas.
The family who ended up in the Lakes made a great comment that I'll never
forget - "this would be so much better if they put a motorway right
through it!" (I don't know whether he had seen the M6...)
Tom
Posted:
I've
been thinking about this some more.
If I was wheelchair bound, what would I provision like to see made available to
help me enjoy the great outdoors?
I haven't come up with a proper answer to that question yet but I don't think
it would include a stair lift up a Dartmoor Tor. It might include some better
footpaths.
Posted:
On
the other hand, would you want to see the countryside change in such an extreme
way in order for you to enjoy it? Ultimately, this may mean that the very thing
you came to see / enjoy / experience no longer holds the same value, and you
therefore have to find a new place to put your stairlift.
As you say, improved footpaths could well be the way forward, perhaps with
better provision from National Parks and other tourist destinations to provide
facilities for people with specific needs, such as motorised wheelchairs
available for hire. There is an estate local to me, who do actually do this.
Obviously, they can only be used on specific paths, but is that an issue?
One thing to think about. What percentage of people who actually need a
stairlift to access the outdoors would use this facility, as opposed to just
plain lazy people who just couldn't be bothered with the walk?
_________________
Posted:
I
thought I'd also post that if anyone would like to make their point known the
chap to write or email in disagreement is Christopher Hart
[url]christopher.hart@dartmoor-npa.gov.uk[/url]
We have to lodge our opinions by the 11th August.
V
Posted:
Overview
drawing:
http://www2.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/WAM/display.do?extension=.pdf&id=180613&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application%2Fpdf&pageCount=1
Posted:
Direct
link: http://www2.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?councilName=Dartmoor+National+Park&appNumber=0510%2F06
I have registered my objection.
For those who cannot walk up to Haytor, it is clearly visible from the road.
Those who can walk up to the Tor are probably capable of climbing it without
the aid of a stairlift.
Posted:
nichburton
wrote:
Overview
drawing:
http://www2.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/WAM/display.do?extension=.pdf&id=180613&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application%2Fpdf&pageCount=1
That's quite bizarre.
Posted:
I
bet the architect is laughing all the way to the bank. A (no doubt)
well-meaning charity has paid what could be thousands to prepare and submit
this application. The application fee alone is £540!! I suppose it's possible
that the architect has taken it on pro bono, but it seems unlikely. They would
choose something much more likely to succeed, not a whacky scheme like this.
Steve Balcombe
Posted:
Doesn't
go far enough. They should put a slide down the other side.
My objection has been registered.
Posted:
Terryg
wrote:
Direct
link: http://www2.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?councilName=Dartmoor+National+Park&appNumber=0510%2F06
I have registered my objection.
For those who cannot walk up to Haytor, it is clearly visible from the road.
Those who can walk up to the Tor are probably capable of climbing it without
the aid of a stairlift.
Absolutely right -
What you are saying Terry is that artificial access structures for cars and
walkers (I.e. roads and footpaths) for your use are perfectly OK, but a
different sort of artificial access structure for a different sort of need is
not. On what basis do you make that argument?
Simon Dawson
Posted:
No
I am not saying that, do not try and put words in my mouth!
I am saying lets try and keep some areas of the country wild for people to
enjoy, and not build onto every bit of land that has not already got some form
of structure on it.
Posted:
If
you want
I remember my first time in the
Posted:
However
there is quite a lot of tors on
Having a look from the road is not the same thing otherwise everyone would do
it.
You try sitting in the car, while everyone else goes and does something you can
not.
Jak
Posted:
Sorry
BUT it wont be used buy people in wheelchairs just lazy people anybody in a wheelchair
or with missing limbs wanting to get up there are more than capable of getting
up there ( I ve seen people in wheel chairs hack there Way through jungles and
cross deserts )
The local borough would be far better thought of if they where to create some
kind of weekend where people whom really want to get up there where helped as
part of an event where able-boded people came together and helped anybody
wanting to get to the top do so. It could help able body people under stand
some of the things disabled people go through.
Here in
Yes they want reasonable access but not people taking the pi**
As for the railway up snowdon it wasn't put there to take people up there
Its part of history from the mining days it was there before tourism
Not meant to offend I do no a little about this subject as my daughter is
disabled and tries to be more independent than her to able boded brothers
Dave.
Posted:
More
on the issue
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2006/07/03/haytor_stairlift_feature.shtml
Absolutely crazy.
Posted:
It's
being designed by an artist. Still, at least he seems to know what he's talking
about...
Quote:
"There's
a lot of external stairlifts on the market and would last 50 years, it would be
powered by solar electricity so it would be very sustainable and could last
quite a long time."
I would be interested to see some more detailed plans, irrespective of my views
on the other issues.
_________________
Rich
http://su.nottingham.ac.uk/~canoe/
http://www.scumbagz.co.uk/
Posted:
It
gets even more hilarious
http://www.stairwaytoheaven.me.uk/
http://www.stairwaytoheaven.me.uk/home/feedback.htm
Posted:
Whilst
I could possibly agree with a scheme if it was more discreet, I still think it
will fall down on the yearly running costs. I can imagine the insurance cost
would be fairly large per year, and due to the location it seems easy to
vandalise. I have also yet to see anything detailing how it's use would be
controlled, so what is to stop kids arseing about on it all the time?
Posted:
God
wrote:
from
the road is not the same thing otherwise everyone would do it.
You try sitting in the car, while everyone else goes and does something you can
not.
It's not gonna help people get out of their cars, they are still going to have
to make it up the hill to the chairlift.
Posted:
The
question that also arises is how long will it take to get vandalised?
I understand disabled people might want to enjoy the view but ruining the view
seems ridculous.
Bob
Posted:
Bob
Flanagan III wrote:
The
question that also arises is how long will it take to get vandalised?
I understand disabled people might want to enjoy the view but ruining the view
seems ridculous.
Bob
Doesn't vandalism imply unplanned damage just for the hell of it? I suspect
targetted destruction would happen a lot sooner.
If this isn't some kind of wind-up, then fortunately Mr Murden's arguement that
Quote:
It's
a logical extension of things like the disability discrimination act that
proposes all public buildings and urban places should be accessible
is
thankfully flawed. Disability discrimination does not override protection of
our heritage which is also thankfully protected.
_________________
http://www.bertie.info/ -
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, but rather to slide
in sideways, totally worn out, shouting f**k, what a ride!!!"
Posted:
Nightshift
wrote:
As for the railway up snowdon it wasn't put there to take people up there
Its part of history from the mining days it was there before tourism
Dave.
Um, not true. It was designed as a tourist attraction from the start, by the
Snowdon Mountain Tramroad and Hotels Company - as a quick "google"
would reveal...
http://www.eryri-npa.co.uk/
Quote:
Very soon the mountain had become so popular that a Rev. John Parker could
write in 1831: “There is no place more public than the higher ground of Eryri
(Snowdonia) during the summer”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowdon_Mountain_Railway
Wikipedia
wrote:
The idea of a railway to the summit of
...A plan to build a railway to the summit of Snowdon from Rhyd Ddu station on
the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railway brought fears that Llanberis would lose
its income from tourists, and the Snowdon Mountain Tramway and Hotel Company
was formed to build the railway...
The Wikipedia entry has some interesting stuff before it gets all
train-spottery, but I'm far enough off-topic to quit now...
Posted:
Norman
Teasdale wrote:
Nightshift
wrote:
As for the railway up snowdon it wasn't put there to take people up there
Its part of history from the mining days it was there before tourism
Dave.
Um, not true. It was designed as a tourist attraction from the start, by the
Snowdon Mountain Tramroad and Hotels Company - as a quick "google"
would reveal...
Maybe, but you would hope
As I recall (haven't been to Haytor for over 10 years) you get great views from
standing at the bottom of it. No ones missing out on that much by not being
able to climb to the op of it?
What's next, putting a chair lift up the Roaches, Stanage, Burbage, etc. Lets
stick one up Cenotaph Corner, we don't want people missing out on that!!!
Posted:
Quote:
No
act of parliament was required as the line was build entirely on private land
obtained by the company without any need for the power of compulsory purchase.
This was unusual for a passenger-carrying railway and also meant that the
railway did not come under the jurisdiction of the Board of Trade.
As taken from wikipedia regarding the building of
Haytor isn't on private land
Posted:
I've
got very mixed feelings about the
We need a balance of accessible countryside and truly wild countryside. (But I
still think the Haytor idea is a whacky scheme.)
_________________
Steve Balcombe
Posted:
I
stand corrected about snowdon but the rest of my post still stands.
Dave.
Posted:
Why
stop there? I did the three peaks challenge last September and surely that is
discriminating against disabled people only offering them a means of getting up
Snowdon.
Not quite sure if itis cost effective but I'm sure there would be more takers
to go up
Maybe the Haytor Idea is only a pilot scheme. Once you set a precedent for
these things you'll be amazed what other people will think of.